Originality Police

How important is it to you, that a car is like it left the factory according the data on the datacard ???
Since I have decoded several Datacards, now will be my question: Has that datacard influence on the value of the/a car ????

Is that important to you, that the M100 is according the datacard (in other words ORIGINAL) or has the car only to be conform your wishes ???

What do you think about a changed car ??
What about when the factory colour(s) has been changed in a metallic-colour of even different colour like green to red ??

What about when the interior has been changed to an other colour ?? or even to an other kind of material as change from velours to leather or opposit ???

What about changing a motormanagment from MFI to electronic FI and removed FIP ?? Or what about the build to LPG-consumption ??
What about adding a electronic ignition ?? What about adding a Turbo ?? Can you find a mechanic that is be able to counter these changes ?? when you buy such a car ???

What about a car that is said to be from the first owner, but according my data the motor is boured up to 7 Ltr ?? (Was in commission offered several years ago in the Lodestar ?? without mentioning this changes)
How far do those or other changes influence the value of a car (positiv or negativ) ???
Have adding those oversized lights (a trademark from one "guru" have a positiv or negativ imago ??
What has more value : an complete original W111Coupe or one non original with an implanted 6.3Motor and eventual an implanted 5 speedgearbox ???

In extreme case; Do you think that the rebuild of a car from a 4 door in a two door Coupe or even a pick-up is value-adding , while one of a kind ????

Do all these changes have in your eyes a loose for value ???

Curieus for the / any answer(s).
How do you think about this matter ???

IMHO (personally vision) NOTHING can meet/hold an original car, but HOW do YOU feel about that thema ????

Paul:

That is a great topic, but will bring answers akin to people who like Macintosh computers and those who like IBM PC's.

I prefer cars that are original or at least are repaired or restored to their original state. But there are certain modifications for reliability or safety that I absolutely encourage: electronic ignition being one of them. The problem with a lot of immprovements is that they aesthetically alter the vehicle. There are much better radios than a Becker Grand Prix, but boy do they look out of place in the dash of an M100.

Getting rid of things like air suspension fundamentally changes the intent and allure of the car, and thus I'm dead set against them. Putting in Recaro or BMW seats in an M100 car alters the "package" of the original so much that it ruins the aesthetic.

Are there ways to improve our cars? Sure, absolutely. But to do so, in my opinion, is to change what they were when they were built - the greatest car(s) in the world. If you want a super reliable, fuel efficient, surround-sound, GPS equipped car, go buy a Camry. Really.

As to changes like paint or tire size or the like, knock yourself out. Some of the colors Mercedes had in the 60s/70s were absolutely hideous. But do a good job when you do it. And leave the shiny bling wheels in the garage.

As to major changes where the overall character of the car is substantially changed, no, I don't like them. And I don't like monster trucks either. I'm sure there will be many who will disagree, arguing that customization is the choice of the owner, and who is to say what is better and what is not? But then that is what makes life interesting, right.

In the end, though, if you are thinking of selling your car, my bet is that originality, or something close to it, will yield the highest price.

Finally, let me offer this thought. All three modesl are exceedingly rare. I would think that what lured each of us to these cars is what they were when they were new. Imagine buying a Picasso painting, and then deciding that Pablo's cube should be a circle or that the square painting should be round, and getting out the scissors and paint. Maybe we "owe" these cars some respect?

Gerrett Conover,
M-100 Membership Sec'y
-----------------------
1971 600 SWB
1979 450SEL 6.9
1981 250 LWB
1995 Impala SS
2000 S500
[img=left]http://www.600swb.com/Images/600_sm.jpg[/img=left]

Thank you Gerrett for your answer.

I don't want to "judge", but want to find out how the "majority" thinks about such things or this item ......

You know I am a big fan of originality.
Otherwise I could very well understand/accept that owners build in a moderner radio, but =and that is again a personal view= only if that means that the originality can be restored .... or the new one is hidden out of the view ....

When I translate/decode so many datacards, what when the datacard not fits the newly bought car ??? How does the owner then feel ???

About a electronic ignition I think it has benefits for weared dissy's without making a big change ... I also could accept that.

So there is always a very personal view on that item.

My interest would be to know how people would react, when they have bought a car and then by translating the datacard, discover to have bought a totaly other car ??

On the other hand:
When you restored your car, after discovering it had a fals colour, whta would you have done ?? Paint it again as you bought it and liked your car or would you go for the original colour ???
I would like to find out how "heavy or difficult" those datacards make life of owners ???[:)]

Please don't misunderstand this topic, it is only a wish to understand ....

Hi Paul,

As you know, I am a fanatic for originality. The question of paint colors (for example) is so far removed from the concerns I have. I'm trying to find fasteners that have the right markings on the heads.

In fact, just today, such a concern came up. My car has every bit of exterior trim removed in preparation for the now-completed paint job. This makes it possible to replace the rather tired tread plate rubber matts without going to a lot of extra work. I had talked to Tom about getting this material and it showed up today.

However, it isn't exactly the same as the original. The ribs are closer together, and it is only available in black. I knew that it would be black (which can be dyed to the right color), but the rib spacing really bothered me. I called Tom again to see if anything else was available. After Tom did some looking (which nobody else even has access rights for), he found three of the four original 600 parts still laying around somewhere. The missing part is one of the rear matts, but the rears are shorter than the fronts, and there are extra fronts available, so one of those can be cut down to fit the rear. I feel much better because I want to keep the car as original as possible. It turns out that the original, die cut matts for the 600 are cheaper than the bulk material anyway!

That's how important originality is to me.

Things like color changes are out of the question, in my mind.

Why? I don't always know.

I do know that the number of people/organizations that have done things to these cars that actually improved the car's behavior beyond what the factory accomplished can be counted on one hand. I also know that the huge majority of problems with these cars that don't fall under the heading of "old rubber" are due to somebody in the past that was too lazy, or too cheap, or didn't have the knowledge, or didn't have the right parts, to actually do a repair correctly. Fighting tooth and nail to return a car to its original mechanical condition is paramount if the car is to behave anything like it did when it was new, and that behavior is paramount when establishing a value for the car.

That's where my desire for complete originality came from. It started as a mechanical necessity, but has developed into a cosmetic one as well. It is certainly true that color has nothing to do with mechanical behavior, yet it remains a vital issue. As are the stamped markings on hardware, or the color and style of hose clamps, or the spacing of ribs on tread plate matts.

I can't say this with complete certainty, but I think it has to do with confidence. The more original a car is, the greater the confidence I have in it. I do know that when looking at a candidate for purchase, the more original the car the more I like it. I won't buy a car that isn't very close to original because I also believe that the concern for maintaining that also reflects the general quality of attention the car has received up to that point.

As to why it is so important to me to maintain cosmetic originality in my own efforts is less well understood. I don't consider what the next owner might think at all, but I want that car to be as original as I can possibly keep it.

Every owner has to make their own decisions about this, and do it consciously. As a general rule, original cars are always worth more than non-original cars. No matter how ugly someone thinks an original color combination is, there is somebody else looking for exactly that (I know a 600 that is painted strawberry and tan, and the owner absolutely loves it). We all know of cases where somebody has done an engine swap, only to have every potential buyer ask if the original engine is still available, regardless of condition.

A car's originality becomes more important as the car gets older. I believe this occurs most significantly as the car reaches, and surpasses, the 40 year old mark. Any car of any make generally sees a noticeable upward change in value at this mark, and most of the newly interested buyers are looking for originality, and overall high quality. Most 600s and nearly all 6.3s are here, and 6.9s aren't far behind. If resale value is important to you, pay attention to originality.

There are some notable exception, even within our own circles. What about a 6.3 powered 300SE coupe? Who wouldn't like to have one of those? But this is a rare case. If it was a 560 engine in the 300SE coupe, would it still be as desireable and valuable? Regardless of anything else, it would have a much more limited appeal and be harder to sell, and that generally has an effect on value.

It also depends on the type of changes made. Personally, I have no desire to scrounge up a set of original Fulda Diadem tires for my 600. Nor do most other folks. A 100 point show car would require them, but it would be downright silly to put them on a car that is actually driven. Other modifications that are easily undone with hand tools don't generally cause much concern so long as the original parts are still available. I even encourage some modifications, like the Pertronix ignition unit. It is one of the few things that actually is an improvement over "original" if the car didn't originally have the factory electronic ignition, and is easily un-done if desired. Just keep that original points plate!

As it relates specifically to the data cards, I think there are a lot more pleasant surprises than unpleasant, though a negative one could be very negative. Like finding out the car no longer has the original engine in it.

Finding out a car originally had a different, and possibly ugly, color would be a shock. But this sort of thing only happens to folks that have not yet completed the necessary education needed to make an intelligent and informed purchase. Resources like this board are truly indespensable in that educational process. Without this board, how many folks would even know they could get the data card, know how to get it, or know how to interpret it?

Ideally, the first thing any potention buyer would do would be to get the car's VIN and get a copy of the data card for the car immediately. A post here about what it says will get an accurate response in less than 24 hours. In fact, on this particular subject, it will take a lot less than 24 hours as you seem to be one of those guys that is at the computor, documents in hand, 24 hours a day!



Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000867

Thank you Chris for your respons.

This car is on the market at this moment :




[extract from the lodestar some years ago]

But claimed as a 6.3 Ltr car and from the first owner .....
Is the owner not willing yo tell the upbore ??? or has the car got an other motor in it ???

What when somebody buys this car unknowingly and later turns out the car has a modificated motor ?????

worried wondering ......

Hi Paul,

I added three more paragraphs to my post while you were making your post.

It is an educational challenge. The data card will reveal if the motor is original or not, though it won't reveal internal modifications. The current owner may be oblivious, as well as willing to take some liberties with the truth. If someone is truly interested in the car and it has a high price, it is in their best interest to research every claim, particularly the one about being a one-owner car.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I have the impression that you might be concerned about revealing a larger truth that might put a buyer and seller at odds with each other. It is my own opinion that it is never wrong to reveal the truth when it is asked for, though I'm not sure that remains the case if it wasn't asked for.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000867

Originality is always important. That is why low mileage unmolested cars attract premium prices. If someone wants to buy a Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3 for whatever reason , then he wants to buy just that. If he then decides to modify the car for his own tastes, then he must expect to lose money.

There are many things in car that are wear items and many that are designated by the manufacturer to be replaced at certain mileages. It becomes a total nonsense to expect a car to have its original battery and tyres, brake pads etc. My 600 had its original spare in the boot. I took it out and kept it for years till I finally decided that it was taking up room. It was useless as a spare. At some Concours, you lose points for such items, so there is a market for "reproduction" items. There is no end to this type of argument or discussion and it ends up really being the difference between having a car that you can drive and a car that you just look at.

Sometimes you have no choice but to replace the motor if you want to keep driving the car. That was the case for my 300SE coupe. The block had been butchered beyond repair. Is the car worth less because it has a different motor? I guess so, but the other alternative was to take the whole thing to the dump, which was where it was going if I hadn't bought it for not too much money. It is a bit illogical to penalize a car because the block has been changed, yet think nothing of whether the head/s has/have been changed, and there is no way of knowing about the latter. That is totally different from putting in a Chev motor.
Art

One subject no one has mentioned, but is quite popular these days is fitting original factory options to a car that didn't originally come with them. For example, many 6.3s didn't come with an offside rear view mirror, but they were available as an option. Ditto for things like rear seat headrests, rear reading lights etc. What about fitting a white steering wheel to car that came with a black one? Is it kosher to dump the dim-bulb sealed beam headlights on a US 6.3, and install the similar looking but far superior Euro H1 lamps? Or putting in the factory inertial reel seat belts that came on later W114s? Is it okay to put even 14 inch bundts on a car that didn't come with them? Even if you accept the concept of putting bundts on, what about on a car built before November 1970 when they were first offered as an option? What about a Becker radio that "looks right," but wasn't strictly the exact version sold at the time. You can date a Becker Mexico Cassette Vollstereo by which arrows are used on the fast forward and rewind buttons, but how many people worry about that?

These are all modifications from original, but to me they generally enhance the car.

Becker Mexico Cassette Vollstereo version 1

http://www.market.scout24.ch/Attachments/Images/002/990/012/004101904-2.jpg

Version 2

http://www.autoradio-oldtimer.de/images/b_mexvsc.jpg

Version 3

http://www.sternzeit-107.de/gallery/Beckerradios/Mexico%20Cassette%201.jpg

What about this? An autoreverse Mexico cassette. Wasn't available until 1980, but still sort of "looks right."

Hi Folks,

About wear-items I agree full, Art.
Also about comfort adding upgrades as Michael states, while they are always to "undo" if wanted.

What me worries is, that there is an red W100 with black leather and black wheelcovers on the market at the moment.
If somebody buys this car and later discovers by translating the datacard, that the original paint was 180 G = silvergrey metallic with greenisch teint, how does the buyer feel then ????

Even the seller seems not to know where to look for this item .... and is thinking that red colour is original.
And repainting to original is not done in an eye-blinck ....

But I admit, that some of these items is also a matter of "personal taste" ..... so it will keep our mind bussy .....

Paul:

Here's an example of how important obtaining the datacard and (hopefully) any change orders made after the order was placed.

One disappointment I had after buying my 600 was that the rear of the driver/passenger seat didn't have the correct black lace map pockets - I assumed that someone had recovered the seats long ago, incorrectly. I started the process of procuring new leather from Germany, etc.

Then, I ordered my datacard which came with a 2 page change order (that Mercedes forgot to black out the original owner's name). The change order showed the owner requested "Pompadour-Taschen Fahrerlehen (leder)", which translates to leather map pockets.

I almost made a big mistake by not checking the original ordering data.






Gerrett Conover,
M-100 Membership Sec'y
-----------------------
1971 600 SWB
1979 450SEL 6.9
1981 250 LWB
1995 Impala SS
2000 S500
[img=left]http://www.600swb.com/Images/600_sm.jpg[/img=left]

So, one had a car with a bunch of very unusual options and pristine interior, and the running gear was fine, but every single piece of sheet metal and each of the rockers were rusted to the point that it had to be replaced, and even the frame rails were bad. You also have another example of the same model which is sound with matching original paint that is correct. Is it wrong or misleading to graft the number from the inner fender, etc. to the sound car and transfer the interior etc. to it? Is it right to move all the pieces to the interior etc? Really, you have the same result except one solution costs more and a probability that the rebuilt car won't behave as it should. Each car is restored.

jim

It can be interesting to the extent that some go to preserve originality. I had someone phone me this week enquiring about his mercedes 230SL . He had been driving along when the oil pressure dropped off. Instead of stopping and checking the dip stick,he tried to reach home. A rod end seized and the rod was thrown out the bottom,smashing the block. The owner wants me to repair the block because it is the original.....

quote:

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12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

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quote:

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Originally posted by james lawson

So, one had a car with a bunch of very unusual options and pristine interior, and the running gear was fine, but every single piece of sheet metal and each of the rockers were rusted to the point that it had to be replaced, and even the frame rails were bad. You also have another example of the same model which is sound with matching original paint that is correct. Is it wrong or misleading to graft the number from the inner fender, etc. to the sound car and transfer the interior etc. to it? Is it right to move all the pieces to the interior etc? Really, you have the same result except one solution costs more and a probability that the rebuilt car won't behave as it should. Each car is restored.

jim

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James,
then you "CREATE" an other car "DATACARD-LIKE".
In europe it is not alowed to do so, but many thiefs do the same ...
Let me call it "LOOK a LIKE" or "DUPLO"

How would you FEEL / react, when you have bought such a car and discover after an year that the car was "renumbered" ???

quote:

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Originally posted by james lawson

Is it wrong or misleading to graft the number from the inner fender, etc. to the sound car and transfer the interior etc. to it?

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Not just wrong, it's completely illegal.

Personally, I simply wanted to 'confirm' the original specs of my car (make sure that body / seat colors were original, etc.).
In general, it might help to limit the activity of the 'cowboys' - maybe ALL MB admirers should make sure that the car they want to buy is accompanied by the respective data-card.


Nick P.

1969 MB 300 SEL 6.3 (109.018-12003481)
1990 MB 190 1.8
1991 Jaguar XJS 5.3 conv.

Great topic guys.

Philosophies on this site have very much changed my views on things in the world, and I thank you all!!

If MY 6.3 had never received "slightly reduced originality" (ie - converted to LPG, and MFI + fuel tank removed entirely) plus body rust, etc, it would NEVER have been in my price range, and I wouldn't have entered the M100 world, and it would have been parted/crushed without doubt.




If I can get it to run (as close as possible) to right on LPG, I don't think it will be devalued as a complete, intact vehicle...

All of that aside, it needs paint, and I dislike the original white.
I will go with a different color....but I WON'T change the tag on the radiator support, and whatever the new color, it must go well with the original maroon interior.

The interior is very good, and all original except a modern Radio.
All electrics etc seem to work.

It will still be a factory car that conveys an era where a manufacturer built a car that came with 'the best stuff they could think of' - BIG V8, Airbag suspension, beautiful chrome, leather & wood, astounding overall sportiness superbly balanced with full saloon comfort and class.

Other non-originalities will be my 16 x 7 Ronal R9s (Penta like) and polished intake/valve covers + Pertronix.

Will it still be a 6.3???
Will it still embody the original spirit???
Will it still dumbfound the general public that Car Makers used to build stuff this good?
Will it still gobsmack the average 'car bloke' and send them into rabid research trying to fathom what they have just seen???

As a car tinkerer, I'm always looking for 'upgrades'.
I do, however, agree that virtually NOBODY has improved a 6.3.
It's original intention as a comfortably elegant hot rod was so well achieved that boosting the comfort hurts the sportiness, and vice versa.

Any change which doesn't lesson the 6.3-ness of it, when applied to a car that has long since been a candidate for an accurate restoration, is keeping the brand alive, and on the road....

300 SEL 6.3 # 2462
Elegant Brutality

@ Nick,

On the pics I have stored, I (thought to) discover(ed) a minor fault with your data-card.
The reverse drivinglihtglass at the left side has clear glass, which should be brownisch like the right side, while french specifications.

You could recolour the clear glass very simple.
Dip the innerside of the clear glass with some liquid JODIUM (which is used for desinfecting wounds)
( neem een eenvoudig watten-staafje [:D] ) Don't know how to translate this in englisch ...... [:o)]

Like this?

Paul,
Dutch Jodium translates to Iodine, used as you say for surgical antisepsis.
Art

@ Michael,
good pic, it has the same fault .....
french specifications : those lights NOT clear but red/brownisch and the frontlights in yellow, which is common known.

@ Art,
I have no clou, but you will be right [:D] Thanks for that translation ..

quote:

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Originally posted by paul-NL

and the frontlights in yellow, which is common known.

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Comme ca.





I wonder if French spec cars also had yellow instrument lights? [:D]

Mike,
How many pictures of these cars do you have?
As to previous: wouldn't such a reconstruction have a branded title?


jim

quote:

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Originally posted by james lawson

Mike,
How many pictures of these cars do you have?

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I searched a while to find those.

Well, sometimes there are errors on the datacards:

My ex-450 SE, 116032-12-0009xxx was ordered for the spanish gob fleet and armoured by Armalite Ltd (Uk).

On the datacard the colour is 903, but..... on the options tag on the radiator the colour was 904, and obviously the car was 904 dunkelblau all it's life!!!

Other suspect, ... my 450 SEL, 116033-12-090xxx, shows a dealer code for Austria, order 0 9 557 00103, but it was delivered to Armalite for armouring and has been all it's life in Spain..... so or it's an error, as spanish country code is 577 or ...it was delivered in Austria for some strange reason! Option codes are 205, 410, 511, 531, 656, 665.
205 is instruction booklet in english (instead of german).
Car has original air conditioning but it's not shown on the datacard.
Car has rear hearest, that are not shown on the datacard...

Often,when desirable cars are first released the dealers with the most influence get the best deals ,so cars that were intended for sale somewhere can get redirected to a special customer .

quote:

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12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

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and a 600 with French rearlights :